Sir Malcom Hailey’s Note on Discussion with Mahatma Gandhi

[Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav]

Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav

Gandhian Scholar

Gandhi Research Foundation, Jalgaon, Maharashtra, India

Contact No. – 09415777229, 094055338

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Sir Malcom Hailey’s Note on Discussion with Mahatma Gandhi

 

 

My discussion with Mr. Gandhi today turned mainly on the agrarian situation, but there were also some subsidiary points mentioned.

1. As regards releases, he had little to say; he had not at all events come prepared with a list of cases in which there were any complaints that we had not observed the Agreement. I told him that if there were any cases which he wished to refer to us, I should be glad if he would send them to Chief Secretary; and he agreed.

2. He mentioned the cases of students who had been rusticated, etc., for taking part in Civil Disobedience. I have not the full facts, but the D.P.I. has informed me that before being re-admitted they were required to undertake that they were to observe the disciplinary rules of the institution. This does not seem to be a very onerous obligation, and failing any more definite complaint from Congress, I would let the matter rest there. Mr. Gandhi did not seem to attach any great importance to it at the time.

3. He attached some importance to the question of arms for which licenses had been confiscated owing to their owners taking part in Civil Disobedience. There were I believe some such cases, though I do not know if we have anything about them at headquarters. He told me that the Commissioner in Gujarat had recognized that this fell within the terms of the Agreement, that Mr. Emerson had said he thought it did so, but that he would consult legal opinion before issuing anything to local Governments. Chief Secretary might ascertain any facts that he can on the subject, and at the same time write demy-officially to Mr. Emerson, asking if the Government of India think that arms licenses should be restored, where they have been confiscated strictly on the ground that owners have taken part in Civil Disobediences.

4. As I have said, the main point was the agrarian situation. We discussed this at great length, and I for my part avoided any point of principle, such as whether the Congress was really entitled under the Agreement to be recognized as the ,representative of the people, etc., and too him at once to the facts of the situation in the districts in which Congress had been most active. I pointed out that however the situation had been arrived at, the danger was that tenants would now refuse to pay rents at all and resort to acts of violence if they were pressed by and lords. I naturally quoted Chauri Chaura to him. He at once disclaimed any idea of a no- rent campaign, and was somewhat aghast when I gave him a copy of the resolution of the Etawah Congress Committee which he said he would look into at once. He admitted that where compromises had been made by landlords with Congress, the latter had not been able to persuade tenants to pay up. He said it was no part of Congress plans to establish an organization of tehsil and thanes; they were quite opposed to the idea of actually starting a parallel government or anything of the kind Having got thus far, I then again but to him the actual difficulty arising from the situation in these districts. He said that it could only be solved by enlisting the effective co-operation of Congress in persuading tenants to pay their rents. But he could not promise this, nor could he engage to use his own active efforts of persuasion direct to tenants unless Congress had something better to put forward than the mere announcement of remissions by Government. His workers had narrowly examined the conditions of numerous districts and were confident that tenants could not pay even the reduced rentals in present circumstances. He indeed suggested that the enquiry showed that rents were so high as practically to be unplayable even in ordinary years, though he admitted that this conclusion might need some modifying in the light of the fact that many of these rentals were old and spread over a long series of years. He suggested the adoption of one of the three following courses:

First, (though he did not press this) he suggested that we might accept the figures arrived at by Congress workers, which he assured me were not a mere rough shot but the result of actual inquiries. I pointed out to him that it was quite impossible to assume that these general figures were equally correct for all classes of tenants and for all parts of the province. Secondly, he suggested that our officers might hold a kind of summary inquiry with selected Congressmen in each district or division with a view of getting better figures. Thirdly, if neither course was acceptable to Government, he asked that Government itself should hold a public inquiry at which Congressmen could give evidence as to the capacity of tenants to pay rentals. I pointed out to him that either of the latter courses would mean delay with every prospect that no money would be available at all for payment of rentals. If tenants get over the payment of any rental at all this harvest, it is pretty certain that they would pay nothing for kharif. It was quite impossible to make summary inquiries in three or four days as he thought, and a general inquiry on the lines of that which he had in mind, namely, the Commission on Champaran in 1916 would take many months. Anything that we did now would not only very gravely affect the landlords, but also might have an abiding effect on our own finances for many years to come; it was not, therefore, reasonable to ask Government to adopt a summary procedure which might have such far-reaching effects. I told him that I would consider his proposals, but it seemed to me that the result of delaying collections would be so dangerous that it would be difficult to accept them. I pointed out that there were many districts in which our officers thought that collections might now proceed without great difficulty and that in my opinion the best course was to set to work on collections wherever possible in the hope that if these proceeded smoothly it will have its effect on the attitude of the tenants generally. We left the matter at that, and it may be that it is not a very satisfactory conclusion, for I did not get his definite engagement to do nothing except to discountenance anything like a no-rent campaign or an attempt to set up Congress tribunals. As Mr. Emerson had warned me, Mr. Gandhi feels deeply that Congress cannot entirely retire from its position of championship of tenants and small landowners.

5. We discussed the question of picketing though at no great length. I pointed out to him the danger that it was becoming communal owing to the unwillingness of volunteers to tackle Mohammedan shopkeepers, and I also pointed out that the snatching away of liquor or the infliction of fines is quite beyond the spirit of the Agreement. Here is agreed and said that he would do his best to discountenance it and had indeed already issued orders against the taking of fines.