Mahatma Gandhi Talks with C. Rajagopalachari

[Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav]

Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav

Gandhian Scholar

Gandhi Research Foundation, Jalgaon, Maharashtra, India

Contact No. – 09415777229, 094055338

E-mail- [e-mail];[e-mail]

 

 

Mahatma Gandhi Talks with C. Rajagopalachari

 

 

Mahatma Gandhi talked with C. Rajagopalachari on June 1, 1933. Details of the talk are here.

GANDHIJI: It is difficult for either party to retreat after having taken such a stand. The position of each is absolutely clear. I can very well imagine that Government wants ruthlessly to implement the policy they have adopted. I can understand its attitude. I am also absolutely clear in my mind as to our reply to it. We should not involve the peasantry and the masses in this struggle. We should not put any burden on them. We should depend only on such people from the educated or enlightened class who are willing to join our party. They also should not depend on any financial assistance from the Congress. Those who need it may secure it from friends, neighbours or others. They should uninterruptedly go to jail. There is no need for demonstrations. For instance, Congress meetings should stop. If necessary, a nominal dictator may be appointed. But I see that there will be difficulty in doing so; it will be as well not to appoint any dictator. There should be no secrecy in the struggle. And no no-tax programme either. I have always felt that a no-tax campaign for swaraj will be a difficult thing. It is of course important but we have never been adequately prepared for it. The no-tax campaigns we have conducted so far have been necessarily limited in their aims. But conducting a no-tax campaign for attaining swaraj is no joke. Let us make it clear to the public through our statements that in restricting the movement we are not giving it up, or deserting those who have suffered but are taking the struggle to a higher plane. People should have faith that one day we are bound to get back all the land which had been confiscated. Those who do not have this faith may take it that they have lost their land. In wars people lost their lives as well as property. We should once again let the people know our demands and our ideals. Let us put forward our programmes before the nation unhesitatingly and do whatever has to be done to bring the nation nearer the goal. I have discussed this with Vallabhbhai. I have thought much over this and have arrived at these broad conclusions.

C.R.  But what is about the people who have already lost their land, etc.? It is only this thought that confiscated properties will be returned that tempts me to secure power. I see from the constitution they are framing that it would not be difficult to get back the properties. I do not know whether I have this feeling because I am weak or because I understand the mind of the British.

G. There is no question of weakness at all. I have also thought of taking power in our hands on account of this and other such things. And Vallabhbhai has also agreed to it. But today we should not think of taking power in our hands at all. At the moment we should think only of keeping up the struggle on the highest level of intensity. It does not worry me if only half a dozen of us are left to do that.

C.R. 1. Can we do anything more on an organized basis in addition to what we can do as individual?

2. In this scheme it is impossible to keep up contacts and maintain organization.

G. Personally I would be satisfied with whatever I can do as an individual.

C.R. Since you forbid secrecy, plans of certain type become absolutely impossible.

G. I want to inspire the finest spirit of self-sacrifice in a few. For that the pure gold of patriotism is necessary. We will be able to build a beautiful edifice over it. If we are not able to do this the whole thing will fall like a house of cards. Let us manifest true Satyagraha through this. One pure thing is much better than many which are not completely pure.

C.R. Is there anything that needs to be done after your statement on the conclusion of the fast?

G. We should renew the plea I had made earlier for a meeting with the Viceroy. I will again ask for the Gandhi-Irwin Pact to be implemented, people to be allowed to collect salt and do peaceful picketing of foreign-cloth shops and liquor shops.

C. R. They have already sent a reply to your statement. Do you think we should write anything more?

G. I feel that we should scrupulously keep to the word I gave that negotiations would be resumed from the point at which they were broken off.

C. R. But they say we should go to them only after first completely withdrawing civil disobedience.

G. They can say this only after the negotiations start and the conditions for settlement are discussed. Where is today the agency that will withdraw civil disobedience? Who will withdraw it? So there can be no condition of withdrawal of civil disobedience till the prisoners are released. I do not at all feel defeated. We just cannot admit having done something wrong or having committed breach of the Pact. No settlement is possible on the basis of such a condition. If we agree to any such condition we would lose the game and will be ruined. Our claim is that there has been no breach of the Gandhi-Irwin Pact from our side. If they think otherwise, they can appoint an enquiry committee. I am ready to abide by the decision of an impartial enquiry committee. But they are not ready to accept any such suggestion. I feel this time also we will get the same reply from the Viceroy as we got on the previous occasion. He would say that, if we wanted to discuss anything without unconditionally and completely giving up civil disobedience, in his view there was no point in my meeting him. Still I feel it is necessary to write a letter not suggesting a way out but asking for an interview.

C. R. Do you not want to write anything to the Secretary of State?

G. I already know his views. Rangaswami had told me that Hoare had written to him a friendly letter saying that there was nothing in the White Paper that could not be changed and so he should go and see him. So Rangaswami went and saw him. Hoare thinks that it is his job to polish off rough edges and show to the world that he is getting co-operation from all the parties, even from the Moderates and the Congress. ‘It would be a good thing if Rangaswami could be persuaded to say something in favour of the reform. It would be equally well if he does not’. That seems to be Hoare’s attitude. Moreover, he runs the administration at Simla too. He is behind all this and not the Viceroy. He is carrying on Birkenhead’s policy in a more gentle way. I am not saying anything new in this because I returned from London with all this information. And all of them in England Irwin, Baldwin, Archbishop of

Canterbury is defending his policy.

C. R. Irwin seems to think that there has been so much breach of the Settlement that it cannot be revived and so it is altogether unnecessary to refer to it.

G. We can raise the issue provided the discussion reaches that stage. But even if we meet, ultimately nothing will come out of all that. Birkenhead and Lord Reading also said: ‘If you do not want war you should accept what the Parliament offers you. Parliament will give reforms gradually. You should be satisfied with that. But at the moment there is no mutual faith or mutual respect at all.’

C. R. This whole chapter has been fully discussed by Sastri. Shall we ask him his opinion today?

G. If you want to see him you may. He will of course not come here. At the annual function of the Servants of India Society he did not say anything special or make his policy known.

C. R. The policy you recommend can be followed only by a few as it is very revolutionary. But it will have no effect on either the Government or the people.

G. I don’t care. It is possible what you say is true but I am prepared for it. I am hurt by these pin-pricks. Only those who willingly set out will have to suffer.

C. R. Then the mass struggle comes to an end.

G. That exactly is going to be the key to the whole affair. We have made a mistake in letting the mass struggle go on without any plan. Only when the people have understood a definite plan from the beginning to the end, will a mass straggle come. When responsible persons feel that people are prepared to lose their property and are ready for even greater hardships, they will start the struggle.

C. R. Don’t you think that the call for a no-tax campaign in January 1932 was premature?

G. Of course it was. I had told Tandon and others in 1931 that I did not have faith in our strength to carry on a no-tax campaign for attaining swaraj.

C. R. If it was a mistake, should we not rectify it?

G. I will not say that the struggle should be called off even for that purpose.

C. R. Government will not return all the properties even if we withdraw the struggle.

G. Government will not hear of any such thing.