Mahatma Gandhi’s Discussion with a Chinese Visitor

[Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav]

Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav

Senior Gandhian Scholar, Professor, Editor and Linguist

Gandhi International Study and Research Institute, Jalgaon, Maharashtra, India

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Mahatma Gandhi’s Discussion with a Chinese Visitor   

 

Q. Do you believe that the British, knowing them as you do, will give you independence without a fight?

A. It all depends. I do not think they would want to have a fight if they were conscious of our strength. But today they do not feel our strength. Have you any means other than civil disobedience to enforce your will? Yes. If we had no internecine quarrels, the British Government would not be able to resist us. You are aware that in China we have paid heavily for unity. We have had to suffer 25 years of civil war. Might not India have to suffer the same horrors if the British withdrew? It is impossible to say definitely what will happen. It is, however, not necessary that there should be internal war. I imagine conditions in China were different. The whole populace there was fired with the spirit of revolt. Here we in our seven hundred thousand villages do not fly at each other’s throats. There are no sharp divisions between us. But non-violence applied to large masses of mankind is a new experiment in the history of the world.

I am buoyed up by my faith in its efficacy; the millions may not have caught that faith, and it may be that civil war will be the price we have to pay for our liberty. But if we win truly non-violently against the British, I am sure there will be no civil war. After 25 years of civil war in China we have now found one person to represent us in our Generalissimo. Is it not possible that the Indian people will need someone more martial than you with your spiritual leadership? If there is civil war, it will have proved my bankruptcy. A militarist will then be the need. In the event of Indian independence would India develop along republican lines? Is democracy suited to the character of the Indian people? These are problematical questions and it is difficult to say definitely one way or the other. If we evolve non-violently, democracy will not only suit us but we shall represent the truest democracy in the world. If the British withdrew, could you protect yourselves?

Yes, if both Hindus and Muslims evolve non-violently. Is it true to say that the majority of Indians of the upper class do lip loyalty only to nationalism and in their heart of hearts want British rule? I am of opinion that the vast majority does not want British rule. They want freedom from foreign domination. If the British withdrew, would you keep any Englishmen here? Yes, if they will transfer their allegiance to us and if they will serve India with their great ability, their technical knowledge and powers of research. Would you receive the help of a third party to free you from you yoke? Never. We have to find ourselves through our own inner strength, otherwise we must fall. Any structure built with outside help must of necessity be weak. The British are a bargaining nation, are they not? Have you anything with which to bargain with them?

Very little and in any case I would not bargain for my liberty. Do you believe conscience can make a man good? Yes, but it can make a coward of him too! Can religion make a man moral? Yes, but it must be real religion, that which inspires one from within with a spirit of love and service. In China we used to think that communism would never take any root, but it has now got a definite hold. Can the same be said of India? I may say that communists have not made much headway yet in India, and I somehow feel that the character of our people will not easily lend itself to communist methods. Is it true that an Indian is a Hindu or a Muslim first and an Indian afterwards? It is not true, generally speaking, though neither will sell his religion for his country. Religion plays no part in our political life, and this applies to Chinese Muslims too. Is India likely to develop more as an Eastern nation, or will the bond with the English be a difficult thing to get rid of? It seems to me that English modes of life and thought have taken deep root here. You are right where cities are concerned. But you will find, if you were to go there, that the villages, which are the real India, are wholly untouched. All the same, English ways and customs, their methods of administration, language and thought have had a devastating effect on so-called educated India. And this cultural conquest may perhaps never be wholly got rid of. India is a nation of so many races. Do you think that should prove to be an obstacle to unity? None whatever. It is strange how we and you have the same problems, social and otherwise. Yes, and that is why we are really so close to each other friends in distress. And here Gandhiji related. How well he knew the Chinese colony in South Africa, how he was their lawyer, what close contact he had with them, how they became his comrades in the fight for vindication of the rights of Easterners there.

He laughingly twitted the Chinese friend of the proverbial inscrutability of the Chinese as well as of the Japanese. He told him how Sevagram Ashram had the good fortune to have a Japanese monk at the moment: Quiet, disciplined, kind, but with a characteristic reserve which does not enable any of us to know his real mind. It may be a good thing, it adds to his dignity, it certainly adds to his peace of mind, and he is untouched, unruffled, by domestic difficulties and quarrels. I felt the same with the Chinese friends in South Africa. I addressed them hundreds of times. I made no distinction between them and Indians, but I always felt that your people had built a wall round themselves. You are so highly cultured and perhaps, therefore, artificial. Gandhiji pointed to a lovely picture of hand-woven silk, framed and hanging on the wall, which the Chinese mission of goodwill had given him recently. Take your art. It is a work of beauty and joy, but that art is inscrutable to me. But I do not mean this in a bad sense. I have trusted my Chinese co-workers and they were loyal and I am much drawn to China and the Chinese. May I ask one or two more important questions before leaving? Do you expect to see India independent? Yes, of course. I want to see India free in my lifetime. But God may not consider me fit enough to see the dream of life fulfilled. Then I shall quarrel, not with Him but with myself. But without an army how can you ever succeed? Well, we have done so thus far. We are nearing our goal without having fired a single shot. It will be a miracle if we succeed. But there is nothing to make me doubt the efficacy of the weapon of nonviolence. Whether, however, we have the requisite degree of it within us has yet to be proved. Is there hatred against the British?

Yes alas but if we remain non-violent, hatred will die as everything does from disuse. It is very hard for us to get rid of hatred against Japan? Yes, it will take generations for you as you are using violence against them. I do not say that you should not have defended yourselves violently, but under those circumstances hatred cannot die. Are the British easier to deal with than any other people? They are as easy, in terms of non-violence, to deal with as anyone else. But not having dealt with anyone else I cannot say from practical experience. All conquerors of India have reacted to what is noble in Indian culture and in Indian nature, the Muslims included. I believe the Germans would have done likewise. It may even be that the English reaction has been less than what others’ may have been because of their insularity and colour prejudice. Before getting into the car the visitor said, “My half hour has been the fulfillment of a long-cherished dream. I shall never forget it.”

 

Reference:

Harijan, 13-4-1940