DISCUSSION WITH C. RAJAGOPALACHARI AND OTHERS

[Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav]

Prof. Dr. Yogendra Yadav

Gandhian Scholar

Gandhi Research Foundation, Jalgaon, Maharashtra, India

Contact No. – 09415777229, 094055338

E-mail- [e-mail];[e-mail]

 

 

DISCUSSION WITH C. RAJAGOPALACHARI AND OTHERS

 

 

Rajaji, Devdas and Ghanshyamdas arrived on January 30, 1933 and discussed the situation arising from the viceregal sanction to Ranga Iyer’s Bill. Bapu explained that the whole question was religious and had nothing to do with politics. My position is wholly religious. I cannot look at this thing from a political viewpoint. I must have the Bill withdrawn if people are really opposed to it. Then someone will tell me with the promptness of an arrow what I should do. We certainly do not wish to enter temples stealthily. Temple-entry is definitely a spiritual act and it must bring about a revolution in society. This whole idea of my fast is based on the belief that a large section of the people favours temple-entry, but they do not voice it. If people are on our side but the law is not, we can ask the trustees to break the law and to put up with it if someone were to bring an action against them under this law. Bapu then stated that they should obtain a clear referendum in this regard. But Bapu thought that even if it were to take three months the work must be accomplished in the area chosen.

BIRLA: In that case the best referendum is that there should be fresh elections to the Legislature on this issue.

BAPU: We would easily win them. But that will not give us the ratio of the temple-going Hindus’ vote. Acharya invites us to go to the Varnashrama Swarajya Sangh. He is involved in it. And if we want to do so, we can, by capturing the Sangh and defeating him as it happened in 1921 when the Hindu Mahasabha was captured. But whatever it is, it is intolerable that the Bill should hang fire for two years simply because it was being circulated among the members.

RAJAJI: Why should we object to it if the delay was due to the circulation of the Bill among the members?

BAPU: Because we know it is only an excuse and it is dishonest. If as a result of the referendum public opinion suddenly sways in favour of the Bill I would press for its early passage.

Then they discussed the subject of Harijan Sevak. Rajaji’s objections were:

Our journal will be read only by our own people whereas at present your statements are published in all the newspapers.  The journal might prove useless.

BAPU: It is very necessary for training our workers and also for tying up all

loose ends. There are so many things which cannot be conveyed through A.P.I. In fact I wonder why you did not feel the necessity of a journal till now. For conducting the referendum Birla suggested having pandits instead of laymen but added few men of character could be found among them.

BAPU: Then they are not needed. Character means clinging steadfast to one’s beliefs. The beliefs of a man who changes them for a higher fee have no worth. I would of course choose to have a sincere pandit, but I would prefer a layman to a pandit who lacks character.

Vallabhbhai had a heated discussion continuing from the previous evening about a referendum and about utilizing Rajaji in upper India for this purpose. He argued that a referendum as such could be of no use unless we have our further aims clarified.

BAPU: My doubt increases whether the people are firmly behind us.

VALLABHBHAI: We never had the opportunity to show it. Yesterday Bapu had said to Rajaji that he would be able to advise him in this matter to a certain limit only.

RAJAJI: Since you have started this movement we must work for it. . . . But if the movement would work only if I were out of it I would prefer to quit.

BAPU: If you independently and dispassionately feel that you alone would be my representative in this movement you should regard this as a clear call to work for the movement and ought to continue the work without caring for public criticism. But I always recite the verse: “Whoever, leaving secure things etc.”1 to those who have the slightest doubt in their minds and tell them that they ought to give the benefit of

the doubt to their initial pledge of civil disobedience. But if you feel you have a clear call, and it seems you do, you must do Harijan work.

RAJAJI: Is the fast yet impending?

BAPU: Yes, it is unavoidable. Looking at the happenings around I think the sooner it comes the better. I have heard about a case at Kanpur. Three Harijan candidates contested the Municipal Corporation election. The other party sponsored none but three Harijan candidates to oppose them with the result that no Harijan was elected. This has deeply hurt me. I had girded up my loins against having reserved constituencies. But now I think that had I been in Ambedkar’s place I would have opposed it much more violently. In this Kanpur case they prevented the Harijans from winning only to safeguard their own interest. The people should have only seen to it that three Harijan candidates win the election either for their own party or for the opposition. This case is a clear violation of the Poona Pact. I wrote to Pandit Hriday Nath Kunzru. He attempted to explain it with cool unconcern and informed me that he would further investigate it. But I want no such investigation. I have already told him to set right this injustice. Birla and the others told Bapu that the Kanpur case was only an exception. The Hindu society was undergoing a speedy change for the better.

BAPU: I do know it. Such instances should not precipitate the fast. But such incidents do upset me. I am however consciously striving to postpone the ordeal of fast.

BIRLA: But once these Bills are passed wouldn’t there be an end to this question of the fast?

BAPU: No, my friend, not at all. The fast does not depend solely on the Bills. The question before me is not merely that of temple-entry but the whole question of untouchability. Day after day I feel more and more that the likelihood of my fast is not diminishing but growing. I cannot say why it is so. I do not even know what will 1 The verse runs as follows: “Whoever, leaving secure things runs after insecure ones loses the former, the latter being as good as lost.” precipitate it but this feeling is slowly but certainly growing. I know this much that I am not at all at ease. All these incidents taken as a whole fail to make a good impression on me. True, some good things are also happening. I cannot shut my eyes to them. On the contrary, I try to close my eyes to unfavorable things. For instance look at this nasty correspondence I am carrying on with these religious teachers and legal pandits.

BIRLA: But you should be content with the speed at which the reform is

Proceeding.

BAPU: Yes, those who have patience will be content. But it does not at all comfort my heart. I know our workers have plunged into activity; there is no lethargy in them. But looking at the whole thing there is hardly anything that can satisfy my heart.

RAJAJI: To cut a long story short I may say that you have grown impatient.

BAPU: I know, as a practical man I must hold my patience. There is no reason to be impatient. Let me assure you that I entertain no such feeling. I had taken no time to come to the decision before January 2 that I should not go on fast. And let me inform you that some of my co-workers are sore because I didn’t begin my fast on January 2. Only a few days ago a friend argued that no reasons had come up to postpone the fast which had already been decided upon.

RAJAJI: You have pampered all these co-workers.

BAPU: That is all right. But there are others too who have condemned this postponement and they are not at all known to me. One gentleman even went on an eleven-day fast protesting against me. I sent him a severe wire telling him that his fast was a sin and nothing less; only then did he give it up. Hence as far as this question goes please believe me that I am struggling within myself. Yet I cannot say to you that there will be no fast. When I say this my friends in England do not get angry with me. Whenever they have a doubt in their mind they try to believe that there must be God’s hand behind. Andrews had written to me several times expressing his doubts. Afterwards he wired to me cancelling all his letters and assured me that he had then understood the whole thing correctly. Alluding to people’s superstitions, Rajaji said: Some people really believe that hitherto Gandhiji used to bring the rains but now he is committing an act owing to which the rains may fail.

BAPU: You are talking about the ignorant people. But I have heaps of letters from people with B.A. and B.L. degrees, which are full of anger, bitterness, venom and abuses, besides superstition.

RAJAJI: This looks like a misalliance between legal expertise and a low class master.

BAPU: My present feeling is that the possibility of the fast is not very far away. How can I say when the fast will come up? When I started my fast in Bombay in 1921, I abruptly woke up Mathuradas who was sleeping by my side and told him: ‘Don’t argue with me, this is my resolution’. The same was the case with my 21-day fast Hakimji, Mohammed Ali all were dazed. But will anyone on that account say that the fast was wrong? I for one think that the fast did achieve its object then, it will prove useful even after 5000 years. Mathuradas then asked what a worker should do who felt bound to offer civil disobedience but was tired.

BAPU: It is difficult to tell. But why shouldn’t such a person do Harijan work? Of course there will be one condition that he must declare that he is tired and that therefore instead of going to jail he wants to do Harijan work. He cannot do Harijan work by concealing this fact. Rather than doing Harijan work while concealing the truth he had better sit at home doing nothing. There is courage in humbly confessing the truth. Those who want to rest should declare it and say that they want to improve their health and till then they will do Harijan work. The point is that one should not practise deceit. Deceit will benefit neither Congress work, nor the work of civil disobedience nor untouchability work.